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	<title>Comments on: FCPF&#8217;s &#8220;poster child&#8221; would reward forest destroyers in Indonesia</title>
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	<link>http://www.redd-monitor.org/2009/03/02/fcpfs-poster-child-would-reward-forest-destroyers-in-indonesia/</link>
	<description>news, views and analysis about reduced emissions from deforestation and forest degradation</description>
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		<title>By: Izefri Caniago</title>
		<link>http://www.redd-monitor.org/2009/03/02/fcpfs-poster-child-would-reward-forest-destroyers-in-indonesia/#comment-1085</link>
		<dc:creator>Izefri Caniago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:19:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redd-monitor.org/?p=1521#comment-1085</guid>
		<description>sory, the last paragraph should written &quot;the most interesting question....&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sory, the last paragraph should written &#8220;the most interesting question&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Izefri Caniago</title>
		<link>http://www.redd-monitor.org/2009/03/02/fcpfs-poster-child-would-reward-forest-destroyers-in-indonesia/#comment-1083</link>
		<dc:creator>Izefri Caniago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Mar 2009 06:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redd-monitor.org/?p=1521#comment-1083</guid>
		<description>Chris - Those are sound goods.  However, I am afraid the answer of your #1 question would be “the history always repeat itself” in market failure theory (Panayotou).  When market demand is high on a particular supply, everybody goes to that business, although lack of research.  And in “a tight condition”, depression or inflation, to avoid social chaos, any quick and fast money on any business would do, anyhow.  Then, when the producer can’t sustain the supply (caused of no more instant fast stock available, pests, soil and climate or land right problems, plus high fertilizer and “social stabilizing” costs) the consumer would go for substitute supplier/supply.  Then, all these business would collapse and leave nothing but unpaid bank mortgage and devastated lands.

For question #2, the answer may because they are already aware of #1 hypothetical answer now? Trying to fix it but no funds available?  Then, eventually they will go for natural forest re-grow plantation forest state.  Too optimist?

The more interesting answer would be, “what if they couldn’t get the funds”.   I wonder what the consumers think.   How long they could hang on before collapsing?  Would the consumer overtake the business and run it themselves? Could they? How?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris &#8211; Those are sound goods.  However, I am afraid the answer of your #1 question would be “the history always repeat itself” in market failure theory (Panayotou).  When market demand is high on a particular supply, everybody goes to that business, although lack of research.  And in “a tight condition”, depression or inflation, to avoid social chaos, any quick and fast money on any business would do, anyhow.  Then, when the producer can’t sustain the supply (caused of no more instant fast stock available, pests, soil and climate or land right problems, plus high fertilizer and “social stabilizing” costs) the consumer would go for substitute supplier/supply.  Then, all these business would collapse and leave nothing but unpaid bank mortgage and devastated lands.</p>
<p>For question #2, the answer may because they are already aware of #1 hypothetical answer now? Trying to fix it but no funds available?  Then, eventually they will go for natural forest re-grow plantation forest state.  Too optimist?</p>
<p>The more interesting answer would be, “what if they couldn’t get the funds”.   I wonder what the consumers think.   How long they could hang on before collapsing?  Would the consumer overtake the business and run it themselves? Could they? How?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Lang</title>
		<link>http://www.redd-monitor.org/2009/03/02/fcpfs-poster-child-would-reward-forest-destroyers-in-indonesia/#comment-1057</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:20:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redd-monitor.org/?p=1521#comment-1057</guid>
		<description>Thanks Izefri - you&#039;re right, any tree species could be used to produce pulp. APRIL&#039;s pulp mills were designed to use &quot;mixed tropical hardwood&quot; as raw material. However, I don&#039;t know of any examples of pulp companies that have used rainforests as raw material and allowed the forest to regrow for future harvests. APRIL is of course part of the RGM International Group, which also has large areas of oil palm plantations. APRIL has clearly benefited from clearing forest and establishing plantations.

FSC has &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fsc-watch.org/archives/?policy~=Plantations&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;certified many industrial tree plantation operations&lt;/a&gt;, despite the social and environmental impacts of these plantations. (FSC may be the best forestry certification scheme in the world, but that&#039;s largely because the competition consists of a series of meaningless rubber stamps.)

I wrote about CIFOR&#039;s report on the financing of pulp mills &lt;a href=&quot;http://chrislang.org/2006/05/29/cifor-report-how-investors-ignore-serious-problems-with-pulp-mills/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.

CIFOR also produced the following report on the economics of tree plantations in Indonesia: Julia Maturana, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cifor.cgiar.org/publications/pdf_files/WPapers/WP30Maturana.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Economic Costs and Benefits of Allocating Forest Land for Industrial Tree Plantation Development in Indonesia&lt;/a&gt;, Center for International Forestry Research (CIFOR), Bogor, Indonesia, 2005. According to calculations in the report of the total economic value of logged over forests, (including timber, fuel wood, non-timber forest products, soil and water conservation and flood protection) the conversion of 1.4 million hectares of logged over forest to industrial tree plantations, results in a total loss to the country of at least US$3 billion. 

Perhaps someone from APRIL would like to respond to the following questions:
1. Why does the company establish plantations, rather than allowing the forest to regrow?
2. Given the company&#039;s historical record of forest destruction, why should APRIL benefit now from payments for &quot;avoided deforestation&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Izefri &#8211; you&#8217;re right, any tree species could be used to produce pulp. APRIL&#8217;s pulp mills were designed to use &#8220;mixed tropical hardwood&#8221; as raw material. However, I don&#8217;t know of any examples of pulp companies that have used rainforests as raw material and allowed the forest to regrow for future harvests. APRIL is of course part of the RGM International Group, which also has large areas of oil palm plantations. APRIL has clearly benefited from clearing forest and establishing plantations.</p>
<p>FSC has <a href="http://www.fsc-watch.org/archives/?policy~=Plantations" rel="nofollow">certified many industrial tree plantation operations</a>, despite the social and environmental impacts of these plantations. (FSC may be the best forestry certification scheme in the world, but that&#8217;s largely because the competition consists of a series of meaningless rubber stamps.)</p>
<p>I wrote about CIFOR&#8217;s report on the financing of pulp mills <a href="http://chrislang.org/2006/05/29/cifor-report-how-investors-ignore-serious-problems-with-pulp-mills/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
<p>CIFOR also produced the following report on the economics of tree plantations in Indonesia: Julia Maturana, <a href="http://www.cifor.cgiar.org/publications/pdf_files/WPapers/WP30Maturana.pdf" rel="nofollow">Economic Costs and Benefits of Allocating Forest Land for Industrial Tree Plantation Development in Indonesia</a>, Center for International Forestry Research (CIFOR), Bogor, Indonesia, 2005. According to calculations in the report of the total economic value of logged over forests, (including timber, fuel wood, non-timber forest products, soil and water conservation and flood protection) the conversion of 1.4 million hectares of logged over forest to industrial tree plantations, results in a total loss to the country of at least US$3 billion. </p>
<p>Perhaps someone from APRIL would like to respond to the following questions:<br />
1. Why does the company establish plantations, rather than allowing the forest to regrow?<br />
2. Given the company&#8217;s historical record of forest destruction, why should APRIL benefit now from payments for &#8220;avoided deforestation&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Izefri Caniago</title>
		<link>http://www.redd-monitor.org/2009/03/02/fcpfs-poster-child-would-reward-forest-destroyers-in-indonesia/#comment-1040</link>
		<dc:creator>Izefri Caniago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 19:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redd-monitor.org/?p=1521#comment-1040</guid>
		<description>Chris - Thanks you very much for your re-comments.  

I might be wrong, but as far as I know, all cellulose/carbon based tree species could be used as a source for paper pulp.  This mixes tree pulp might not “as good or as white as” eucalyptus pulp.  But, don’t forget that “good paper” is basically based on “paper producer advertisement” not what as buyer or user need.  Moreover, I wouldn’t worry much about “not as good as or as white as……” based on our current industrial technology.  You must be familiar with the recycled paper.  

In the natural condition, 4-5 years is long enough for the forest to regain biomass/carbon as much as it might need to be harvested for pulp industry.  There are enough woody plants available, as long as the location is not in the middle of the dessert or very far away from the mother tree seed source.  At least, that what I have been observing in natural forest regeneration in many places in Indonesia.

Blaming the pulp company for their “past mistakes” might not solve the current environmental problems.  (Since the past mistakes were very complicated, you know why…. the wrong maps, poor administration, etc….).  It might only waste time and money and benefit taken merely by small group of people.  

I would prefer to advocate natural pulp industry plantation.  Plus with the FSC+RSPO+HCVF demand from the market, it could be best choice.  The business still there, the money is still there, and the native tree species plus its wildlife still there.  And I could still buy and read affordable newspaper in the morning with a cup of hot coffee mixed with eurycoma longifolia root…..  

Moreover, if I thought I have read a cost benefit analysis done by CIFOR in 2006 mentioned that most all of this business were not visible, which meant not profitable economically.  Unless…. these companies have more than business as usual in their minds.  Say….., land occupation, to get bank credit for other investments… or making new “kingdoms” in the “frontier land” used to be forest home for local people and wildlife…  Otherwise, there should be no problem…. 

Enlight me.  Best and good luck.
IC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris &#8211; Thanks you very much for your re-comments.  </p>
<p>I might be wrong, but as far as I know, all cellulose/carbon based tree species could be used as a source for paper pulp.  This mixes tree pulp might not “as good or as white as” eucalyptus pulp.  But, don’t forget that “good paper” is basically based on “paper producer advertisement” not what as buyer or user need.  Moreover, I wouldn’t worry much about “not as good as or as white as……” based on our current industrial technology.  You must be familiar with the recycled paper.  </p>
<p>In the natural condition, 4-5 years is long enough for the forest to regain biomass/carbon as much as it might need to be harvested for pulp industry.  There are enough woody plants available, as long as the location is not in the middle of the dessert or very far away from the mother tree seed source.  At least, that what I have been observing in natural forest regeneration in many places in Indonesia.</p>
<p>Blaming the pulp company for their “past mistakes” might not solve the current environmental problems.  (Since the past mistakes were very complicated, you know why…. the wrong maps, poor administration, etc….).  It might only waste time and money and benefit taken merely by small group of people.  </p>
<p>I would prefer to advocate natural pulp industry plantation.  Plus with the FSC+RSPO+HCVF demand from the market, it could be best choice.  The business still there, the money is still there, and the native tree species plus its wildlife still there.  And I could still buy and read affordable newspaper in the morning with a cup of hot coffee mixed with eurycoma longifolia root…..  </p>
<p>Moreover, if I thought I have read a cost benefit analysis done by CIFOR in 2006 mentioned that most all of this business were not visible, which meant not profitable economically.  Unless…. these companies have more than business as usual in their minds.  Say….., land occupation, to get bank credit for other investments… or making new “kingdoms” in the “frontier land” used to be forest home for local people and wildlife…  Otherwise, there should be no problem…. </p>
<p>Enlight me.  Best and good luck.<br />
IC.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Lang</title>
		<link>http://www.redd-monitor.org/2009/03/02/fcpfs-poster-child-would-reward-forest-destroyers-in-indonesia/#comment-995</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 08:08:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redd-monitor.org/?p=1521#comment-995</guid>
		<description>Izefri - thanks for this comment. Allowing forest to regrow takes very much longer than establishing a fast-growing tree plantation. Acacia or eucalyptus plantations grown in the tropics can be harvested on a rotation of seven years or less. There is no way that any forest could regrow in such a short space of time. The question is whether it makes sense to hand over large amounts of money to companies that have destroyed vast areas of forest in the past - or that are threatening to do so in the future. And whether the World Bank really thinks that this is FCPF&#039;s &quot;poster child&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Izefri &#8211; thanks for this comment. Allowing forest to regrow takes very much longer than establishing a fast-growing tree plantation. Acacia or eucalyptus plantations grown in the tropics can be harvested on a rotation of seven years or less. There is no way that any forest could regrow in such a short space of time. The question is whether it makes sense to hand over large amounts of money to companies that have destroyed vast areas of forest in the past &#8211; or that are threatening to do so in the future. And whether the World Bank really thinks that this is FCPF&#8217;s &#8220;poster child&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Izefri Caniago</title>
		<link>http://www.redd-monitor.org/2009/03/02/fcpfs-poster-child-would-reward-forest-destroyers-in-indonesia/#comment-989</link>
		<dc:creator>Izefri Caniago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Mar 2009 21:57:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.redd-monitor.org/?p=1521#comment-989</guid>
		<description>The monoculture plantation should not receive FCPF.  It&#039;s not a good business.

Clearing rainforest for pulp and change it into a monoculture plantation does not make any bussiness sense at all. 

Why spend so much money to plant monoculture tree while we could just leave the forest regrowth itself naturally?  

Of course in some conditions, but very doable in the tropical forest.  All they have to do just create the &quot;naturally regrowth pulp plantation forest&quot; condition.  Much more efficient and ecologically sound.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The monoculture plantation should not receive FCPF.  It&#8217;s not a good business.</p>
<p>Clearing rainforest for pulp and change it into a monoculture plantation does not make any bussiness sense at all. </p>
<p>Why spend so much money to plant monoculture tree while we could just leave the forest regrowth itself naturally?  </p>
<p>Of course in some conditions, but very doable in the tropical forest.  All they have to do just create the &#8220;naturally regrowth pulp plantation forest&#8221; condition.  Much more efficient and ecologically sound.</p>
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